Taylor: [00:00:00] Welcome to Success/ful, where we break down the essential elements of leading customer success strategies. This podcast is all about uncovering blind spots, pushing beyond typical best practices, and tackling those out-of-bound topics for CS leaders that are key to our success. So if you're a CS professional seeking to innovate and adapt in an ever-changing landscape, Join us on this journey to be more successful. I'm your host, Taylor Johnston, VP of Customer Success at Vitally. Today we're tackling a topic on the minds of many customer success leaders: being intentional about inviting other functions into the customer experience. Greg Collins, Vice President of Revenue at Boldr, and I swap strategies and real-life stories to give you the tools to become a powerhouse in your organization. Let's dive in. 

Taylor: Well, welcome Greg Collins. I really appreciate you being here with us today. Tell us [00:01:00] about your role at Boulder and why specifically you wanted that title of VP of Revenue versus the VP of Sales.

Greg: First of all, thank you so much. It's a privilege and honor to do this with you, and it's always a joy to catch up as well. So yes, VP of Revenue versus VP of Sales. One would be practical. I oversee marketing, sales, and then revenue operations for the company. But also, I would say it is a strategic desire of mine. Sales is about acquisition only, and I think strategically, revenue follows impact… customer impact. I was seeking a role and a title that allowed me to spend my focus not just on acquisition, which might be the outcome, but the strategy is how to do our product services and our client experience team drive continuous client impact. And so, to [00:02:00] be successful in sales or revenue, you have to be successful in exceeding your client's expectations on a reoccurring basis, and I want to make sure I stay close to that.

Taylor: Can you talk us through, in this role of VP of revenue, how your past experiences, because you've touched every part of an organization and spent a lot of time in sales, but how has your past experiences and just breadth of exposure to different parts of the client experience prepared you for the role that you're in today?

Greg: I think it is imperative for a modern-day sales leader to be intimately familiar with the struggles, opportunities, and wonderful elements of having to support and serve in a CX organization to make that promise come true. I look back on things I did as a sales leader with good intentions, not understanding what my support and success leaders had to do to make [00:03:00] that a reality. And so, now with that voice of experience with the customer versus being told a story, lived the story, has, has uniquely changed my eyes of how it is when I'm working on figuring out what is the next vertical and what is the message and how can we uniquely serve them instead of just doing a lot of market research and competitors and looking for a hole and building moats of competitive advantage. I can reach out to my peer Taylor and say, “Hey, this is directly where I think I'm going. But tell me, where or why have we had success in this vertical with this persona? Can we really help them? Or we're creating and fabricating something new. Am I getting meetings? Or am I finding clients that generally can set you up to create client impact?” And so, our product, our service, our CX organization are what create impact. And then sales come behind that with marketing to say this is what we do really well. Can we help? And in the [00:04:00] past, before I had all that CS experience, it was just that I'm great at messaging and asking the right questions and building a business case. But it was absent of the actual practice of delivering it.

Taylor: That's awesome. I mean, we hear so much about it right now, that ongoing shift away from focusing solely on the top-line growth. So how can customer leaders, and revenue leaders, truly focus on driving customer impact? What does that mean to you?

Greg: Yes, I realize that utilization and renewals and all these things are important, but I don't think it's the core of where we should be focusing as leaders throughout the revenue organization, especially within customer success. I really think it's more, again, you're going to, you're going to see an overwhelming theme from Collins here. It is revenue that follows client impact. So if we were on the acquisition side, we would talk about finding out what the senior leadership team's 5 by 5 is, or what are their [00:05:00] strategic objectives, or defined objectives. Sometimes that gets lost in the success world. It's like, we get caught up in the bits and bots of, is the product doing what it's supposed to be doing? Which is not how we won the deal in the first place. We won the deal in the first place by finding out what their business objective was, the challenge that was in the way in solving that, and it can get really easy to lose sight of that—always the core focus. What is the problem we're solving for the client or the opportunity we're helping them capture? What is that defined business objective that goes all the way up to the C suite and the board? And that's a real challenge on the front side and it doesn't get any easier on the back side. But we all get caught up in our MBOs or OKRs or whatever your favorite framework is at your company, and it gets really easy to put that mirror up and start focusing on that instead of realizing that the voice of the customer is really about are we continually driving positive and back to their ongoing business objectives.

Taylor: I've heard you talk a lot about voice of the [00:06:00] customer and making sure that that's front and center across the organization. So what are some ways that you've experimented with or gone about making sure the voice of the customer is the center of everything that you do?

Greg: Yeah, well, I used to think that was stories predominantly and in, over time, I've changed that to be experiences. What's that old phrase, do things with people, not at people? I think sometimes customer stories or voice a customer, if you're not careful, can start feeling like they're weapons to get what you want. Here's another story, and I want to get this feature, or I need this from that department, and they're stories, but they don't resonate emotionally whereas experiences, well, those stick. And so, I think voice of customer when done at its finest is really about getting other departments and leaders, your first team, right? And I think the best way to do that, Taylor, is find out what they're good at and give them the opportunity to [00:07:00] help a client with that. So they get involved in the client's experience, not our customer experience.

Taylor: Yeah, can you give an example? Maybe a time when you pulled in a team member who isn't necessarily the first group that comes to mind when you think about delivering a client experience.

Greg: We were struggling in QBRs. I'll leave names of companies out. We'll protect the innocent. We were struggling with QBRs. They were very “us” focused. How do we do our health score? What is utilization? You just need to renew. It was very, very tactical. And of course, we've gotten bumped down. We've lost our champion—the person that actually makes the decision. We're now dealing with more of the day-to-day lead. We're not talking business value. We're talking features and functions. And so who traditionally in a business is really good at helping someone define a business case and explain it to the C suite? Your acquisition team, your sales team. So reaching [00:08:00] out to sales and saying, “Hey, I need your help in building a champion stack.” How is it we prove the business case of the defined objectives and business outputs we're driving for this client to help justify where they should continue our partnership? That's a different skill set. People love to help with their expertise. So reach out to sales and say, “Hey, I need help with how we do these QBRs.” Not that you don't know anything about client experience, but “Hey, can you help me with something you're great at to solve this problem?” Oh, now I'm engaged. Now I'm engaged. And that sales leader or that salesperson is now also starting to get a customer experience. What are they going through? Which is going to benefit them as well, because the next prospect they're talking to, they'll be able to give another client example. Hey, we just invoiced a customer.

Taylor: I love this approach of bringing people in at all points at all times. Let's have some good experiences and see the painful parts of it and lean on the skills of others around the organization. So I think it's a really important, different perspective on how some might be [00:09:00] thinking about communicating with peers. So I love it. And customer impact can be driven, not just through, again, the customer team, but through other parts of the organization interacting with the customer, I think is really important.

Greg: It's a very common phrase in, in sales leadership, they'll say, you know, sales is a team sport and it takes all of us, right? And it is, it takes, it takes all of us. I think there's an opportunity really to beat that drum on the CX side as well, which is client impact is a team sport. And I think there's just so many opportunities to engage people to bring their expertise into serving that. Again, if you subscribe to my theory, not my theory, there's a lot of people that have this theory, that revenue follows client impact. There's so much opportunity to engage with marketing on how we define personas and ICPs. There's so much opportunity to engage with sales and marketing on CVP, [00:10:00] client value. In terms of what, what makes you different? What are those defining objectives that are driving renewals? And then what are the accounts that are churning? We might be able to capture them, but we're not actually driving impact. That's not good for the business. Tell sales, that's a bad target. Not all business is good business. Just because you can get a contract doesn't mean you should. So I think there's a lot of opportunity to start bringing sales and marketing into the experience of helping drive impact for our clients. I'd love to see all of us be more intentional about it, but it's hard to do. We get bifurcated and all the things we have to get done.

Taylor: Yeah. And to your point, yes, the OKRs, the strategic plans, you know, everyone's got their direction that they're heading in. So for a customer leader who is hearing this and thinking, “Oh, I really want to do that. I want to go get involved in these conversations.” Where might you, you mentioned ICP, for example, so maybe let's talk about marketing for a second here. How would you encourage a customer leader to [00:11:00] go start talking the language of marketing? What are some areas you might recommend them starting? Is it the ICP conversation? Is there a different angle you might suggest they take?

Greg: I would start by asking questions in terms of talking to a marketing leader and say, “What are your OKRs or MBOs or you have for the next quarter or next three quarters?” Right? So now you're starting to understand where it is that their response for driving their division. Then you can start aligning client impact to their MVOs. Someone once said to me, “People aren't against you, they're for themselves.” So if you can, as a leader in any department, go to your first team and find out what, what do they need to get done? What is in their interest? And then you can map it back to serving the client's impact. That's where you start. So I would start with those questions because maybe they don't need ICP help. Maybe they need persona help. Also, they're going to come to you and say, I need more case studies. [00:12:00] Ask smart questions around those case studies. Or, I need more referrals. Great, to achieve what? What, what business impact are we trying to prove?

Greg: I just need a happy customer. That's a very different ask than we're trying to get into this new industry and this title. Who do you know? I think you also can take your financial metrics. So I would assume all of us are doing ARR waterfalls. Stay away from compound or blended metrics and get into component metrics. So for instance, if you're doing your waterfall, look at it by product and look at it by segment. And then be able to go back to marketing and say, Hey, this one's growing and this one's not yet. I see we're spending a lot of money in a segment that is shrinking. So I think it's bringing insights to other departments. Once you understand what their MBOs and OKRs are, but it's, it's asking questions and trying to map it back to how does it serve the client impact.

Taylor: You know, you mentioned, you've mentioned kind of talking about getting with other [00:13:00] departments and really engaging other leaders and making sure that you've got buy in to drive customer impact. What are some of those? Other success metrics that in this, in this new world of customer growth being the engine that is driving our business, what are some of those metrics that are crucial for customer leaders to really be focused on? Maybe outside of the traditional metrics.

Greg: I'm going to say they are traditional metrics, but they're not traditional metrics that I typically see CX leaders get engaged with, that I think they shouldn't. So there's CAC to LTV, and there's a huge assumption in LTV. Is it three years? Is it five years? And what's your actual retention rate of these customers? And again, no compound metrics, no blend, I'm sorry, no blended metrics. So by segment, by product, what's the actual lifetime value? How long do they stay? Do that waterfall. And now you're able to go back and talk to finance and sales and rev ops and say, [00:14:00] Hey, made it map to illustrate the point. Our captain LTV is based on a five-year LTV. In this segment, we're seeing them churn at month 28 with an increasing trend. Boy, did you just provide phenomenal strategic insight to where we need to spend money or stop spending money, right?

Greg: That is business strategy, not client impact. But it's something you should be responsible for. I would say start educating yourself as a CX leader on how the finance in your business are talked about and examined and go be part of it. Lean in. And if you don't know how, again, what a great opportunity to walk over to your VIPA finance or your controller or your CFO, I don't know, someone in finance, and say, hey, I don't want to be defensive, but I'm missing a little bit of education. What blog posts would you encourage me to read? Do you have 30 minutes to coach me up? Like, invite me into the problem space so I can be part of the solution versus just like, I'm not a con. We serve Stop beating the drum and go [00:15:00] lean in and attack the problem. Don't be defensive.

Taylor: I love that. You know, you mentioned disparate geographies and being in different places, and in this now 100% remote world, I know a lot of folks are struggling with, you know, creating those moments and, you know, having those experiences and even organic moments. So how do you think about managing some of these conversations in a remote world?

Greg: I think what you're asking me is how do you build cultural teams when you're not on the same office?

Taylor: There's actually two parts of it. Let me break it apart. So there's, there's the team aspect of it. So I've heard you talk about, you know, part of the creating the client experiences. A couple of ways you've gone about that in the past has been in person, Mixing up the teams, creating these interesting moments where folks are just organically hearing what's happening on the customer front, the team side of it. And then the second piece of it is what you mentioned around your peers and engaging with other [00:16:00] departments and having sort of even more casual conversations with just, Leaders in other departments. So it's sort of a two-parter here, potentially. How do you, how do you build the team aspect of it? And then how do you make sure you're engaging at the right places at the right times with other leaders in the work?

Greg: Two phrases come to mind. One is to be intentional. And the other is, people engage with what they help to create. People engage with what they help to create. There's been crappy companies for as long as there's been people in companies, whether we're all in the same office or not. So let's, let's disassociate culture from presence. That said, it is easier to build relationships and tackle problems, address conflict. When you're face to face, right? The extreme example of that is customers are real bold on email, get 'em on the phone. Well, [00:17:00] customers are just people. I can be really bold over, over a Zoom, and then let's meet for coffee and see what my stance is, right? Those are just people. So I think it's always easier to get to the root of the relationship, the challenge, and the opportunity to grow together in person. So I would try and find ways, but I  think some of that is just a smokescreen for the fact that you have to try harder and be intentional. And, and more of a remote hybrid kind of, kind of world. So, back to where we started with two phrases. One is to be intentional. Maybe you need to create an MV or OKRs. When you're doing that, think about how is that a drive collaboration? And the second we've talked about a little bit, just in various ways, but I would wrap it up in the theme of, to build cultures, I have to be part of something bigger than myself. Kind of have to feel like I'm contributing to create it. With versus at, right? So instead of saying, “Hey Taylor, this is the objective that we need to have, and I need you to do this, this, and this.” And you're out in Colorado and I'm out in Atlanta. It's taking the time to be [00:18:00] intentional and say, Hey, Taylor, this is the objective that we need to achieve. I've got some high-level ideas, but I'd love to see how you could add or do it differently. And notice that that talk track does not mean that you work for me. I work for you or you're a peer in another department. People engage with what they help to create to give people the opportunity to contribute with their zone of genius into your problem statement. You'd be amazed at what happens. And I think we just have to work harder now that we're not all in the same room and we're not all forced to clock in and get coffee at the same coffee station.

Taylor: Super powerful. And I've heard you today talk a lot about just inviting, inviting, opening the door, being vulnerable, being open, inviting everyone into the customer experience, not just telling the story, but helping people live it [00:19:00] and how that impacts the rest of the business. So thank you for, thank you for that.

Greg: Well, you said it much more concise than I, thank you.

Taylor: All right. Well, we can't let you go without some fun lightning-round questions. So I've got some quick hits for you. Are you ready?

Greg: Okay. Should I stretch first?

Taylor: I mean mentally prepare yourself. All right. I promise it'll be easy. So, what is one thing you wish you could spend more time on in life or in work?

Greg: Oh, wow. One thing, repeat question to Stull, one thing I wish I could do more of in my personal professional life, spend more time on? Spend more time on… I notice a material difference in my happiness as well as my productivity when I take the time to start my day with quiet, sometimes that might be [00:20:00] reading a book, sometimes that's sitting on my porch drinking a cup of coffee. Or it might just be planning my day, but not in a hectic kind of way, just kind of like, what's the most important thing I want to do today? Being intentional. I could be better at that discipline, and I think if I were to do that, it would benefit me and my team and the people around me. Thank you for asking that question.

Taylor: Let's see, if you had a crystal ball for customer behavior, so perfect timing, maybe coming into a new role, you're getting to know new customers. If you had a crystal ball to understand their behavior, what is the first thing you'd want to know?

Greg: What's the first thing I'd want to know? What they're really trying to achieve. What they're really, vulnerably trying to achieve. A lot of times that is masked, and by the time you earn the trust, you're well done as a solution designer already. Oh, what you're really trying to achieve is this. Got it. So accelerating the [00:21:00] trust in relationship, I think, is an imperative whether you're in CX or sales. Marie, who's our Chief Operating Officer, my first day to hire, she and some of the leadership team, we went out for dinner, and we're having dinner in the most genuine, authentic, non-threatening way. She says, “Greg, we believe that the speed of vulnerability equates the speed of productivity.” Not for exact words, but that was the concept. And just, like, the sooner you can get a client to trust you because you're trying to help them. not expand your license, close a deal, etc, etc. The sooner you get to what they're really trying to achieve. So vulnerability is, is with authenticity is, is a wildly powerful and positive thing. I'm sorry, it's supposed to be a lightning round. What was the third question?

Taylor: No, that was perfect. The last one is what makes you feel successful?

Greg: What makes [00:22:00] me feel successful? If I can be in the wings of a stage watching my teams be celebrated for achieving what we did, oh, I love that. Oh, I get goosebumps just thinking about it. I love being able to know that I helped the team I'm on achieve something they didn't know they could. That's when I feel successful.

Taylor: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Greg, for giving us your time today and sharing your insights and perspective. We really appreciate it.

Greg: Oh, thanks so much, Taylor. It's, it's an honor to be asked, and it's, it's a, it's a pleasure to be in your circle.

Taylor: Big thanks to Greg for sharing his insights with us today, and a special thanks to all of you who tuned in. If you enjoyed this episode and found value in our conversation, don't forget to spread the word to your customer success friends. And before you go, we'd love to hear your thoughts. Take a moment to leave us a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback means the world to us. [00:23:00] Until next time.